Bitcoin Is the Toll Collector of the AI Economy

when it starts to happen, there's an AI theme behind it. I want to make sure people realize when it comes to crypto, this is 100% for me about agents. And I'm telling you, the amount of traditional people that continue to bang on my door to talk about tokenization, [music] to talk about how to make money on this. They're doing their homework now. I think next year is going to be the year that we see the biggest moves in crypto because of it. What's going on, guys? Today, we got a great conversation with Jordy Visser. In this conversation, we talk about what's going on with AI agents, how crypto and Wall Street are coming together. Then we talk about the idea of this going from a contrarian to a consensus trade. And then Jordy and I, we debate a little bit as to general purpose models versus specialized workflows. Where is value going to acrue in the AI industry? And then we get into the bubble talk. All these people worried about a big bubble. And Jordy helps us separate both the signal from the noise. Here's my latest conversation with Jordy Visser. All right, Jordy. This week there's a Bloomberg piece about you. The Bloomberg piece said, "Forget the AI bubble." Jordie Vesser says, "The bank apocalypse has begun." Congratulations on the uh Bloomberg coverage. You're a big deal now. Um but >> they waited for me to say something negative. >> Negative. They didn't say anything positive. >> No, no, no. The media loves a bearish thing. >> Well, bank apocalypse will definitely get clicks. Uh what is the bank apocalypse and why do you think it is coming? [laughter] >> So, I posted an X that morning. I didn't see the article until someone pointed it out to me. Uh we've talked about it before, but I really did a lot of it on my my video last weekend. So rather than turn this into some like the banks are all going to go to zero thing, the software companies went through their SAS apocalypse. So number one thing, it's a play on the SAS apocalypse thing. SAS got hurt for two reasons or two two stories behind it. One is the recognition from people that AI was going to disrupt seatbased SAS software. Not all of software. Cyber's done well. Bitcoin miners have done well. They're in there as well. Microsoft's been fine. But the reality was AI hurt these companies despite the fact that they continue to print for the most part record earnings. And that was a sign if you remember in that first quarter, one of the most important signals for everyone to think about when it comes to sectors is that because of exponential innovation and AI continuing to increase progress, at some point it will be a negative for almost every single industry and especially legacy industries. And I just want to make sure because I tried to I tried to show that in the expost and I'll use some of that here. I believe the banks now are going to go through a problem which is they're going to come under multiple compression over the course of the next year because of two factors. One is the rise of AI agents which means consumers are going from let's say lazy individual small businesses have their money in banks that pay them zero yield. That's really good for the banks when the banks can take your deposits of which there's a lot pay you zero take that money invested in treasuries yielding 4% short-term not like SVB did long-term but [snorts] shortterm uh you can get a spread on this so we saw the article from Torston Sllock with an agentic bank run so he was going a different angle but that's part of it and I don't want to say that there's going to be a run because that's what's going to happen. What I want to say is that agents are not going to make mistakes. They are going to search for the cheapest way to do thing and that means that as agents control more of the money decisions, banks are going to be in trouble. The second thing is that the guardrails are going to apply pressure as well. And this is where crypto fits in. So when you have the users, the consumers no longer being humans but being digital agents and at the same time you have financial guardrails which are being in the system more where there's same day settlement which means stable coins which means tokenization. We're headed towards that settlement. Long-term settlement is a good thing for banks, for Visa, for Mastercard. The longer it takes for some, somebody gets that float, somebody gets the chance to invest [clears throat] that money for a day, for 3 days, and if an instant settlement, it's not the same. So, this was really a a belief that banks will still make money. Um, but the spread, the edge that they had, their multiples over the future are going to be hit by terminal value again. So, it's not a like doom and gloom thing. I kind of played with the SAS apocalypse to create bank apocalypse. But that is what in in my opinion is certainly going to happen with the rise of consumer agents. >> Is there a positive to this? Like the consumer wins in this scenario? >> Yeah, the consumer wins. The people who um invest in the financial guardrails are going to see more traffic. So if you invest in crypto and it's a small asset class, you'll do well. The the only place I see getting hurt is the middlemen. And so labor verse capital has been an issue. The consumers, we have a K-shaped economy. Anything that is going to make it more powerful to bring, you know, inflation down, at least on the service side, uh, is going to be positive in the long run. So your question, everyone should be thinking about it. What's the positive side? Well, the positive side is if we can reduce the fees, you'd be shocked at how much money the banks take purely on a spread basis from everyone. Well, the reason I say that is uh we never see the headlines of the positive news. Like uh one of the chapters in the book I just wrote actually I don't know if you know this is uh uh planes that land safely never make the news right and so like same thing here is when people see disruption occurring they always cover it from the angle of who is being disrupted. They never are like consumers will make X billion dollars more because they now will have their money not parked in you know low yielding assets or whatever. So, the perspective I think matters, but it also plays into I don't know if you saw Paul Graham uh this week, uh Amazon made the decision to stop I think it was Muse and some other bots or agents from accessing Amazon. And he came out and I thought it was probably one of the most interesting perspectives uh this week was the first time in decades that he believes someone could expose or exploit a wedge to disrupt Amazon. and his point was if somebody could build an Amazon that was made for the agents >> that could [clears throat] be very disruptive. Now, Shopify, I think, is leaning into, hey, how do your agents come and buy things and do all this, but that feels like the banks are the same thing. Like, if somebody builds a bank that is agentfriendly, it's probably going to be pretty valuable, right? Well, let's separate the bank, meaning where you place your money. If they pay you the fair spread, meaning if you deposit money in a bank and they pay you and all you're doing is I'm getting interest on that money, then there's the other service side. They call you up. We want you to invest. You know, they all own brokerage houses. They all own they want they want to make sure they're making money. This is this is the service side of the business. Stripe is not a bank, but Stripe is competing with all of them. And that's what I included in the piece. This weekend I will go through about 15 slides of Stripe. City Bank is a $200 billion market cap company with $200,000 people. Stripe has 10,000 people. It's about $ 160 billion currently off the latest valuations. If you go through their M&A activity, if you go through their volumes, their revenue is up 41% year-over-year according to them. You go through every metric in their revenue side. They have already built for the crypto world. They already are set up for this. They're already set up for the agentic side. They've been talking about agentic commerce for a long time. These older banks, of which I worked for one, it's very hard to get through the bureaucracy and make a decision. They've always had the ability and this is one of the things that I think people should just really listen to when it comes to something that I feel by using AI and why I try to help people use it as much as you can. The progress is insanely fast. As you and I both know, these businesses never move fast into something. First of all, there's a calendar year, the summertime, nothing gets done. And then you come back in September and they start focusing on when they're going to pay people for bonuses. And that process, trust me, it's a while. Then they've got to do 360 uh reviews. Then they have to hand out the bonuses. They have to sit and put a budget in for the next year. This is all time. AI doesn't wait for that. Stripe doesn't wait for that. They don't have the amount of people that Croup does. They don't have to bring in the managers from overseas. They don't it's a it's a completely different side. So I think the nimble companies and what Paul said about Amazon, if I remember exactly what it said, he basically said never in their history have they been in have had to do this. The reason I think this is important for people to think about when it comes to the hyperscalers, I say all the time, you have to look at how these Mag not the Mag 7, but let's well let's say the Mag 7 became so big. They don't compete with each other for the most part. Apple, Apple has its own business model. Amazon has its own business model. Google has its own. AI agents cut through all of them. They all want consumer agents. And if they start playing this game of we're not allowing Muse to come in because we're waiting on Alexa. And then Siri does the same thing. Apple also announced they're changing the iOS and they said it was because they didn't want agents penetrating. So, they use the scare tactic as opposed to no, we don't want agents to get into this. I would love it right now if my AI agent in Muse could get my Apple messages. It would make make it a lot easier. I think [snorts] they're all now in trouble that they're all basically trying to defend their turf. So, they're playing for the same TAM now. And that means that their business to me is being disrupted. And I think Amazon, what Paul Graham wrote is just a sign that they don't know what to do because these companies are big bureaucracies. Now, >> uh Elon Musk tweeted uh two or three days ago saying that Grock was going to open up the backend to any model. And for those that are unfamiliar, um, if you use OpenAI, they will give you either a model that you select or if you are just talking to ChatgBT, they may route your query to an OpenAI family of models. They would never send your query on ChatgBT to Anthropic, Claude, etc. Grock historically has used their internal stuff, but now they're opening it up and they're saying, "Well, we're going to actually just route to whoever is the best model." To answer your question, if that forces the hand of the other players, to me, that signals that the models are commoditized and now the value of those models becomes much more in question than they already are. I personally think that's where we're headed. like we bet Sylvia on this of building a model router and saying hey we don't really care what the model is we just want it to be the best one to answer uh for the uh end user now Elon's doing it does that force open AI and anthropic both to open up themselves as well or do you think that they can keep these kind of closed you know kingdoms and uh similar to how Amazon seems to be kind of creating a closed kingdom like we we're playing this game of like bundling and unbundling that is like the story of you know business and finance for decades So, this is the one place where you fit in with the masses. So, when we when we talk like I disagree with where you're headed with this, >> okay, >> um, and I I've heard this repeatedly from people over the course of the next six months. This is not exactly what you're saying, but it's pretty close. >> Open AAI and so ChatGpt and Claude are the best models, plain and simple. Like, I don't care what anyone says to me as someone who uses all of them and has used open source models. The best model right now is Opus 5.5. The next best >> for general general purpose stuff. >> No, no. For the stuff that I do, so that includes images, video, like a general model that will do everything that I need. Not like Gemini makes a lot of mistakes and it comes back with answers that are ridiculous. Opus 4 Opus 5.5 is a game changer. Now, here's the thing. >> You tell Gemini it's silly. >> You know, it's the most disrespectful thing you can say to a man. It's just you're silly. I don't understand. So I I'm maybe it's because I use them so much that >> I don't get frustrated by the answers. I don't have to explain twice to them. And trust me, you have employees and you know which ones you might have to say something twice to. >> Listen, I today's episode is brought to you by Arch Public. Arch Public has just expanded its agentic trading platform beyond crypto. 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Go to archpubic.com right now. Connect with their team. Set up a time. Bring your accountant if you'd like. Then you can learn what automated trading can do for you. archpub.com. >> I'm a very big believer and uh have always said I think that people underestimate the importance of their intuition because it is you know it's your human algorithm. You've been training it. Just as there are benchmarks that are these like objective open- source benchmarks that all the models try to you know game or whatever you have a Jordy benchmark and what you're describing is that opus is 5.5 is the leading model in the Jordy benchmark. Yes. And it's not just for me. How many times does Grock get announced as solving the greatest math problems ever? How many who's in the fight for that? Like it's not just me. Who finds an enzyme for crisper? Okay, that used to be Google. That's what Alph Go was. That's what Alpha Fold was. That's not what's happening anymore. The stuff that's happening is in these models. And here's the issue. when you start realizing how much compute is needed for consumer agents. So the Paul Graham thing what what you didn't see Elon also posted that and said seriously like this is we're going to have commoditization in intelligence. There's no doubt about it. The difference is and what people don't realize the amount of compute you have leads to the models being more efficient. So, if you haven't felt this yet, [clears throat] I'm I'm surprised the cost of the models for like Opus 5.5, they're getting more efficient because they have a ton of compute power behind it. But if it takes you 2 minutes to get to an answer in Opus 5.5 and a cheaper open-source model takes you 12 minutes. When you add up the token usage and the cost and it comes through, the time does matter. not just the answer. And I think everything in AI is about the time relationship to the probability of getting the right answer. So everyone only talks about the cost side. That's not the way the world works. We have cheap cars. We have expensive cars. Like everything in life becomes that. I just think for solving cancer, for solving the greatest problems in the world that people are going to need to get to space to do this, we're getting there's going to be highlevel things that are going to take these models. And the problem is Anthropic and OpenAI are going to own most of the compute going forward. And if the compute matters that much, which it will because I still will keep saying and I hear this on the other side, people still fight on like there's a bubble coming like we are so early in the demand side of tokens. So early the coding agents didn't even exist a year ago. So that just started the adoption that means for corporations we went through token maxing. Now we're going through okay we can't throw this much money at it. We have to be more efficient with our thoughts. Well, they're figuring out how to do that. The models keep progressing and getting better. And Ver Rubin's going to come out next year. As Ver Rubin comes for the same amount of gigawatts, you're getting more. Well, who owns most of that? The really smart groups own most of that. So, that's where OpenAI Anthropic, but also Elon Musk, he owns a lot of it, too. He's been buying as much Ver Rubin as he can. So, I think we're going to get to a point as you move down the road that the open source is fine for the majority of tasks. 90% of them will be close to zero. But for the 10% the total TAM of that 10% is going to continue to grow through adoption. And that's where Jevans paradox actually matters because the cost of it and the efficiency will keep going. And that's really important for people when they think about investing because I will continue to say there are two themes that I care about right now. Agentic compute. So the AI infrastructure and the financial guardrails. That's what I believe over the next one year will create the alpha. And if you look back over the last four years, the alpha has all been about AI. >> So I have uh somewhat of a hot take. >> Good. >> The big labs already are behind in two very important ways. What are the leading personal agents? Muse and Instinct, not the big labs. I know they launched DOTs. We'll see what happens, but Muse and Instinct are out in front leading in those two. When you look at specific applications, legal, finance, etc., the large language models are not the leading models. They're leading in general purpose, but when you start to get specific, they're not. When you look at it on a cost perspective, I can just go off of our data. If I process 500 million tokens from uh on Claude, about $5,000. If we process the same 500 million tokens on our own model and our own hardware, it's 97% cheaper. So what I think is going to happen, but I think the fact that you and I don't agree on this actually is like maybe that's the story of like nobody really knows, right? Is you're going to start to see the large language model say we got to pick our battles. Where do we go and fight to win because just having the general purpose model is actually not going to be as valuable because of the commoditization. And so we should accelerate into specific use cases. Anthropic recently announced that they're going to go really heavy into bio and all the biotech stuff they want to go do. It feels like they think that is a massive opportunity. If they can win there, that is trillions of dollars of value that they can create. Open AAI is saying dots and personal assistant. They've always been more of a consumer type company than an enterprise type company. And so I don't think it's just like, hey, go all in on one specific use case, but it does feel like they're now realizing that the general purpose model can serve as like a foundation, but the monetization of this and the sustainable moat is going to be in the applications. And this goes back to the idea of in crypto, if you go back to 2017 or so, there used to be this thing called the fat protocol thesis. And the whole idea was like all the value acrrues to the protocol layer. And I could be wrong on this, but I just continue to go back to the fat protocol thesis. The equivalent in the AI is like the fat model lab thesis where all the value acrews to the model lab. What we found in crypto was there is definitely some value that acrrews to the protocol obviously bitcoin, ethereum, etc. But actually a ton of the value acrewed to either the infrastructure underlaying it in terms of miners and things like that or the application layer. It feels like that's the same thing happening here where as the technology gets built out, we have tons of infrastructure that's making money, we have tons of applications that are yet to be built, but I just find it really hard if like Anthropic and Open State as general purpose model providers. I just think that is like a cutthroat business. It's like kind of a race to zero. Who can get the, you know, highest level intelligence for the cheapest cost? And so like what's the moat? What is the the the, you know, thing that defends against everybody else? But I don't know, maybe you think differently. >> I do. Um I don't think the application So when you say Muse and these things, how h I I I don't understand how Muse is going to make money. >> Oh, I think they're going to print cash. >> Okay. So, I don't understand how they're going to >> because again, the they have a couple of decisions they need to make, but let's use Instinct as Amuse's uh uh kind of proxy. What they very clearly are trying to do is they want to get as much transaction volume going through that personal agent as they can and they think they can basically take a vig and my guess is that they will go and start pressuring whether it is the credit card companies, the payment processors, the merchants etc. and say, "Hey, I'll route stuff your way, but you got to give me something." Right? >> So, M or uh Instinct is going after a transaction-based revenue model. He has said that he would like to keep it free forever. >> Facebook, they got one business model. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> And you and their target is about to get way better, right? And so, whether it is actually transactions where they get paid or the advertising is where they get paid, I worked inside that business. Trust me, if you're going to use their products and you're going to give them more data, they're going to get better at ads. And so to me, it's not Muse makes money as much as Facebook makes money. They just happen to own the Muse thing. And look at like WhatsApp like that. They've started to do this across a lot of their interfaces. Um, and I go back to when I opened up Instagram and I've got a interstitial at the top of my Instagram feed that's like download Muse. They're going to get people to download it. They're going to get the data. then they're going to target you. >> Did you listen to the Noah Shinar interview? >> Yeah. >> Okay. When you say ads, that's he called that the attention economy. >> The attention economy is going to collapse. >> Maybe >> I I I personally I I don't I mean part of what's going to happen, it is very clumsy at this point to have to use your phone for your personal agent. >> Agreed. >> Okay. So that's why they're all trying to figure out the next gadget to go through. By by the way, uh I think that Instinct, which we really haven't heard Meta talk as much about this, but Instinct, he specifically uh he wants to monetize the transactions and what he his belief, which I actually agree with him on, is the agents transacting should lead to more transactions, which therefore it's like a market expanding technology for both the merchant, him, everyone kind of wins in that because the consumer also gets served. I think in the attention to come you're talking about like yeah if the agents are perusing or looking for something serving a display ad in the feed of whatever is not going to be very valuable and so I is there going to be like agentto agent advertising here here's the point and this is where we can end this conversation um I only believe there's two things to focus your attention on the toll collectors >> that's crypto >> as far as I'm concern. I want the digital money guardrails, the toll collectors. >> I don't want I don't want to invest in Muse and then watch as seven other agents are released and that's before we have agents in Europe and agents in Asia. Like this is the thing. We have competition globally. >> I just want to collection velocity. I don't want the attention economy. These are all things to me of the last 17 years. I want to bet on the things that we are always going to have demand greater than supply. >> Mhm. >> We will not have enough compute for the agents. That is the way to play what you're describing. In my opinion, the competition, it's all going to be commoditization. The reason I say I don't agree on the anthropic and open AI is because I think there's infinite amounts of money for super intelligence and they're going to have it. Open source models can never have the size intelligence they can because they can't have the compute. All of these places they don't have the compute. So they can keep copying distilling the models but at some point you need this because we won't release the best models to the market. They will go to the businesses >> and that's where it can't be commoditized. So at some point people have to realize if you have the compute you get the best model. If you have the best model and it can solve all the math problems, then every single science and physical place humanoids will want that model. You don't release it to the public. And if you don't release it to the public, how do you distill all the information if it's not a public model? >> Maybe this is like the root of where we see a different world. I don't think that uh Claude will be able to create a model that outperforms a company. Let's say that you're a huge law firm. Let's say you're a huge finance firm. >> If you take open source models and you customize them via fine-tuning to your specific architecture, your specific data, etc., you should be able to out compete them. So again, how many business are going to do that? Do they have the talent? It cost money. Like there's a lot of whatifs in there. But if that is the case, I guess that's where I get a little bit more less enthusiastic is just like you can keep iterating on the model, but it's still a general purpose model. Yep. >> The businesses that say, "Hey, we're going to build custom models for ourselves." >> You can show up with the smartest model you want, but they're like, "But it's not customized to us." And so the business is less likely to go do it. Now, >> I think to your point, that's a black and white analysis. What's probably going to happen is the business like give us all of it and then we'll figure out what we use and over time they'll kind of fall away but they'll try almost everything. And that's kind of what we saw. There's a Wall Street Journal article uh that says uh the title is spending on AI is becoming almost impossible for businesses to budget which is basically this story, right? >> And it's it's a great one. So I I we'll leave it at this. I I don't disagree at all with what you're saying. The models will not be the models behind a law firm. Those will be more open source and cheaper things. The problem is the law firm will end up being a oneperson law firm and a billion of them. So if you're like I hear you talking and and I think you think differently than I do in the endgame, which is I don't want to be a VC fund. Like I don't think you can pick the winners in the world you're describing because I believe it will always be an entrepreneur that says I'm willing to make less >> 100%. >> And I'm going to build a business and I don't I only need to make a hundred grand a year. So when people ask me how to like and this was asked to me yesterday's like okay I'm I'm I'm in my 20s. I want to I want to be a part of this. I'm watching your videos like okay focus on signal verse noise. Don't listen and just keep working hard. AI is going to keep going. The alpha as you're stacking your chips building a poker chip which you're getting through your job. If you don't feel like you're growing fast enough in your job, then go build an app on your own and collect 10,000 and then go build a second app, collect 10,000. Believe it or not, because of Stripe, you can do that. Like, you can create an app that competes with the world. And if you create 10 of them, they're each making$10,000 and that's $100,000 and at your job you're making $115,000. Then you can quit your job and go create these regularly and build up a stack and invest that money and it compounds. I met people at your event. That's what they basically do. They've made their financial wealth through investing by not listening to the bubble talk. >> Mhm. >> We got to do some bubble talk. It was a bubble week again. >> Well, why? >> I want to talk Bitcoin and bubble. I've had enough of of tech. >> What's going What's going on with Bitcoin? [laughter] [snorts] >> I think I beat him into submission there. Did you just cry uncle? >> May maybe maybe this is us. It's like us at Thanksgiving now. We we were together twice this week. Maybe it's it's >> for those that don't know, Jordan and I try not to talk during the week, so we can come in here, but we we had a midweek uh midweek session and so, you know, we're we're uh we're >> it's like Thanksgiving at the Pompiano House right now. I've been a guest for two. >> All right. What What is uh what's going on with Bitcoin? >> Uh it's consolidating. No, no, no. So, I I I do want to give because I've a bunch of people have asked and I I want to make sure everyone hears this. >> For Christ's sake, be patient, [laughter] >> Jordy. Why isn't it at 100K? Yeah, exactly. Um, come on. It's October. What happened? >> Let me go through. I want everyone to go bring up a chart of Micron. You know, we talked about Micron when it was $100. We talked about when it was 150. If you go look at 2024, we started this thing. A lot of people in your office bought bought Micron. Should I stay in it at 200? Should I get out at 200? It went to 1,400. Now, if you go back and look, it broke above the 200 day moving average, just like Bitcoin, just like Ethereum, and then it retraced back to it. It tested it. I am not sure that's going to happen with Bitcoin and Ethereum and the rest of the crowd. But you have to go look at why that happened. When it starts to happen, there's an AI theme behind it. I want to make sure people realize when it comes to crypto, this is 100% for me about agents. And I'm telling you, the amount of traditional people that continue to bang on my door to talk about tokenization, to talk about how to make money on this, they're doing their homework now. I think next year is going to be the year that we see the biggest moves in crypto because of agents. And so I just want people to realize that I've watched this now a lot, but in particular with the semiconductors. It took a long time when it was obvious to me because of AI, because we were going to need an enormous amount of memory, but very smart people were not on it. And right now, there are a lot of smart people running around saying we're in a bubble. That prevents people from jumping into anything. They see the rates going higher. Everyone should be grateful that with rates going up as much as they are, somehow another crypto went higher. with gold going down as much as it has gone down, crypto somehow has been distancing itself and going higher. So, when you go through this whole thing, I I I really do believe people have to be patient with this. Um, it's a bull market and I feel comfortable in saying that because I said when it was a bare market, we're above the 200 day moving average, the 200 day moving average is pointed upward. Just be patient. These things can never go as fast as you want and the thing that will accelerate it the most is when the traditional finance crowd comes into it. And for that, we need the tokenization volumes to go higher. We need the tokenization asset size to go higher. We need the stable coin volumes to go higher. That's why I talk so much about Stripe cuz Stripe is talking about this daily. It's happening. Every person listening to this show, you probably own Bitcoin and you got it the same way. You paid full price on an exchange. But there's a smaller group of business owners, family offices, and investors with sharp CPAs. And they're quietly getting theirs a very different way. They own the machines that make it mining. Here's how it works. 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And uh if I did not know Catrini wrote it and I read through the the notes of this, it could have been a Jordy Visser piece in terms of the the main message of there's this intersection of crypto and Wall Street. I think that some people will read some of these other pieces, whether it's Black Rockck, whatever, and be like, "Oh my god, Jordy Viser's ideas are infiltrating whatever." You said something to me interesting though, which is this is good because it means that like we're transitioning from almost like a contrarian view to consensus view and you kind of need that. Can you explain a little bit as to as people see this idea show up in other places why that's actually a positive sign >> it when you when you talk so the way people view you uh >> oh you've been positive on Bitcoin for how many decades now? >> Well Satoshi got the idea for me didn't he here? [laughter] >> So [snorts] I don't bring that up as as as as a dig. I bring that up as once you kind of have this story that you say over and over again, and this works for me too, your voice doesn't appeal to people who don't believe in you because they go, "Ah, he's a perma bull on crypto, so it doesn't matter." So, in fairness, the reason I'm saying this is if Jordy gets viewed as someone who will only be positive on Bitcoin, which isn't true. >> No, you were bearish last year. >> No, but bearish was saying I I I was never bearish. What I said is we're in a bare market like acknowledging the facts. You can't fight the market. Like the market is the market. I believe the market knows everything. >> What we're trying to do is forecast what the market will think in the future. And people have to realize the only way you make money in anything that you invest in is not because you were right. It's because other people that didn't agree with you at the time came in and pushed that asset higher. At the end of the day, you are trying to bet where the money is going to go, not where the asset is going to go. So that is the problem that happens. We I mean Salesforce.com is down yet their earnings are good. So fundamentals don't matter. What's driving it? It's because people were overweight SAS because they had a view that it was a stable business because private credit has a lot of software. There's a bunch of reasons. So for me, we need Catrini. We need BlackRock. We need other voices to speak up. In fact, I'm going to say this right now. Jordy wants to go to as many conferences next year. That makes sense. Now, I'm saying this, you're going to help me. I've already reached out to Natalie. Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna get out there because I do want to sit and make sure that people hear why I'm positive on it. >> Jordy Vistler World Tour. >> Yeah. I The one thing I don't >> T-shirts made. [laughter] >> The one thing I don't hear enough about is the connection that Catrini did, which is agents to crypto is really important. And it gets back to the Mark Andre piece. And that's why I don't want this to be about the basement. I don't want, oh, the bonds are going down. The government's going to have to step in. I believe a year from now, it is very likely that 10-year yields will be about the same level a year from now as they are today. >> The only way I'll say they'll be lower is because if the jobs market gets noticeably weaker, which I don't think it will over the next year, I definitely think it's going to hover around zero. But if it got weaker then the debasement thing will become a bigger thing. But other than that, it's because we're growing so fast. What that me means is the only thing that's driving growth is AI. It's the only thing. >> And so the bet becomes about AI. And I have full belief that demand is greater than supply over the course of the next few years. So the buildout is going to happen. The spending is going to happen, which means nominal GDP is going to happen. I don't think the government can move rates down lower. And so if we're going to run this thing hot, that means the agentic world will continue to accelerate and that means crypto is going to do well. So I think the pieces by Catrini, by Black Rockck, by everyone is very important. I think where my edge is in this whole thing is really spending the time every single day of connecting consumer agents importance to what's happening right now. And when you look at that chart that I've said so many times from page 71 of situational awareness, everyone should just recognize that the chaos is going to be worse next year than it is this year. What we saw this year, all of the chaos, the daily, oh, we're in a bubble, we're this, it's only going to get worse because people are overwhelmed with the speed of change and we're going to accelerate next year in speed of change. >> How do they prepare and navigate that? I it signal verse noise is really important. Um but how do you [clears throat] do it? >> Okay, so this week a very famous hedge fund manager Ray Dalio was quoted as saying bond yields may and I and I emphasize the word may prick the AI bubble. So this gets a lot of attention. People send it to me and they go, "What do you think?" >> Bubble talk. >> Now, if if this was said by, you know, Joe Joe Smith on the corner, >> by me. >> Yeah. If Joe Smith got interviewed by Bloomberg and said, "I think it may prick the AI bubble, it wouldn't even Nobody would care." But because Ray Dalio said it, they care. But here's the thing, and I'll show this this weekend. Ray Ray Dalio. If you just go into any LLM and say, "How often has Ray Dalio said there's a bubble over the last 15 years?" It's a lot. [snorts] And it's not to say that he's not a smart guy. What it is to say is he has now made a career, his like post hedge fund career. He's writing books about the history of the world. He's a very smart guy in understanding the history of the world. So, he's saying we're going to end up in the exact same thing that we've had. And maybe we will. maybe they'll maybe something will go on, but I think he has a um [snorts] a thesis that he has to stick by and this is he's just going to keep doing it. And so before it was a bubble on something else and as I sent you something and I'm going to show this weekend, if there was truly a bubble, I think if we had a pandemic, the whole market would collapse. Oh, check. We already had that. It didn't do that. We were back at new all-time highs and up for the year. Okay. Well, if the Fed did the fastest rate hike in the history of the United States in an un unexpected manner, we would certainly blow up this bubble of 40 trillion in debt and the whole world would collapse. We had that one. Didn't do it. Inflation hit almost 10%. Didn't do it. Okay. Maybe after they were done though, we'd see the the after effects and we'd have the biggest, fastest bank run in the history of the country. Oh, check. We had that with Silicon Valley Bank plus all the little banks that fell too. We had deposits flowing out. And guess what? New all-time highs. Maybe if we decided to go back to Smoot Holly and we announced massive tariffs around the globe, that would do it. Okay, we fell 20%. Then we rallied back to new all-time highs. Finally, this one there's no way you can stop because those were all kind of easy ones for the Fed to print money out of. So, you could think that they were going to print money. What about if we shut down the straight of Hormuse? Every oil would go to 200, 300, 400, 500 and we would well we had that this year can't print money and yet somehow or another the market found a way to go higher. So now the new one is rates are going to do it. So I think people have to just understand the way markets work. We've had new all-time highs many, many times during my career and there's been many, many bad things that have happened. And there may be another 20, 30% correction next year. And it might be because rates get to such a high level that we end up with, I don't know, a bunch of businesses that we didn't know had a lot of debt in Europe, in wherever, that end up collapsing. I don't know. But I also know that if that happens, the governments have financialized everything. So they will come in just like they did after Silicon Valley Bank and make sure that they put money into the system to make it not go down. A pandemic took trillions and they did that. I don't know what other people want to do. So I think when you listen to these bubble talks particularly when it comes to AI the way to navigate watch my video. I am showing facts about the demand verse supply. I am going to show why Ray Dalio's conversation although may be true it's just the headline that he's put out there the alpha which names are working I'm literally going to go through and say okay almost nothing has worked nothing over the course of the last decade very few companies have made money if you go back to chat GBT only 24% of the companies in the S&P 500 1500 so 1500 companies only 25% % have produced a return greater than the index as a whole 25%. So it's very concentrated. Guess what? We've been concentrated for a long time with the MAG 7. If you're trying to make money, you need to know the things that are working. The only thing that I think you can make money on with the highest probability of certainty is things related to building out the compute because we don't have enough of it and we're going to continue to build it out. On the other side, I think you need crypto. So the alpha I'm trying to give. And then finally, the best way to feel empowered is to learn how to use AI. If that's what's causing the problems and that's where the biggest fear is, if you want to make sure that you know more than Ray Dalio, trust me, he doesn't sit on an LLM all day. So go build something, upload it to GitHub, you have something over Ray Dalio that he doesn't know about today's world. So the agency side, the empowering side is very important, too. >> I could not agree more. What are you going to do your video on this week? >> I just kind of did it. It's a bunch of that stuff. Uh we we just talked about it, but in more detail and seriously I uh I enjoy doing this. I had a great time with the group that I saw and I'm not kidding for people that in the crypto community that are having big conferences where you have a lot of people where you think I can add some value. I'm going to go to a lot of them next year and before my calendar fills up with things for you and for other people that have first dibs, I would like to be in a position where I can go to places and talk. I think the most important time to get back to your thing about Catrini, Black Rockck, Joseph Chalum, William Magguire, whoever you listen to right now, the voices are getting louder and louder on crypto. I think making sure that people have a chance to hear this and understand it and learn from it is really important. So, I think the next 12 months is is something I regret with the Micron thing of not really explaining to people, but I didn't have a big enough audience. Now, I have a big enough audience. So, I want to make sure that as many people as possible hear our show, but they also learn about the importance of crypto. >> The Jordy Visser World Tour begins January 1st, 2027. Book them now before his availability is out. By the way, did you know that I'll never ask you to go anywhere other than in New York City? Cuz I don't go anywhere for any event. Like, if we do an event, it has to be in New York City because I don't want to travel. Um, >> I wish I had a video for everyone to see that you and I passed each other in DC where you didn't tell me you were going to be there and it was literally not a joke. You were going out of turn style. I was coming in a turn style. >> High fived. >> Yeah. >> And by the way, he was going and Jordy Jordi is a amateur when it comes to conference attendance. He was there for like two days. All I went down on the train in the morning, did my 15-minute talk and went right back. I had the best time I've had at an event with those people in DC. >> They were they were great. I I uh had to come back for other reasons. But I have one last thing, a surprise for you. Uh did I hear that you read some of the chapters of my new book? >> Yes, I did. >> The book is so good that I made Jordy read. Just think about that. That's the only ad you need. It [laughter] >> it got Jordy Visser to read a book. >> It it it's it's really not a book. It's a it's it's it's very similar to a book that I love, The Daily Stoic, because it's just passages. So, I can read like a page I can read a page a week. I'll finish it by the end of the year. >> They're they're letters, so they're like two pages long. Uh and there's 50 of them. But I just I figured out what's the best ad that I could make. Just the book's so good, Jordy Visser read it. [laughter] >> And I love reading about spinach, so it's fine. >> The devil doesn't tempt you with spinach. All right. Thank you all for watching. We'll see you guys next week.